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Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

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Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby toaplan » 30 Nov 2012, 18:03

I agree with Rob's point of view. Kickstarter projects can be risky, but at the moment the model seems to be generally working and has contributed positively to gaming. With fantastic projects such as Braben's Elite sequel and the Chris Roberts-developed space combat game on the way, the benefits clearly outweigh the negatives imo. Tamoor was right about Dizzy though...
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby stealth » 30 Nov 2012, 18:05

kickstarter is 100 percent BS.

Now, this is coming from someone who is actively supporting 5 projects.

Would it suprise you to know that the first sentence is a quote from a guy who had his project APPROVED?

According to him just about 25 percent of game projects are funded. Of those funded he says, less than half will ever see the light of day.

In fact as of typing this we really havent seen anything yet, and already multiple projects have been cancelled.

The idea is great, the execution is bad
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby El Mag » 30 Nov 2012, 18:15

For me personally, harm.

I've been trying to kickstart a Radar Rat Race sequel but so far I've only managed to get 80p in coppers, Under Siege 2 on dvd, half a packet of prawn cocktail Wotsits and a smack in the mouth from the local vicar.
Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes.
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby Barry316 » 30 Nov 2012, 18:25

I'll chip in Party All the Time by Eddie Murphy to that.

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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby razors edge » 30 Nov 2012, 19:26

Has it already been mentioned that Rob has a bit of a Karl Pilkington look about him?
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby MrPirtniw » 30 Nov 2012, 22:49

With Rob on this round. Tamoor has some valid points but like toaplan says, the good outweighs the bad.
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby Megatrons_Fury » 01 Dec 2012, 01:26

Ok i have to be careful on this post because of the over sensitive nature of CVG staff but here goes....... And again its all in good jest.

After listening to Tamoor trying to convince anyone that the WII U launch was Nintendo's best launch ever i first have to ask exactly how old is this man? Im wondering if he was of a sensible age when consoles like the SNES and N64 launched, the original GAMEBOY and even the GAMECUBE launch, no matter how objectively i look at this point of view my head hurts from how a console with no truly stand out must have above all else game can possibly beat consoles that launched with games such as Mario 64 or Super Mario world or that little known global hit Tetris???? Games that are even today still benchmarks for their genres.

Upon viewing this weeks debate i got to the point where Tamoor argues that Kickstarter opens the doors to people who shouldnt make games and at this point i couldnt believe my ears, theres no way unless this is a joke that this statement can even be argued, its a completely un-defendable statement to make.

If it wasnt for people making games from places like bedrooms etc this industry would in fact have no industry, the era of BBC Micro's, Spectrum 16/48/128k, Amstrad cpc's Commodore C16/C64 through to Amiga 500/1200/600 and Atari ST/Falcon gave us people like the Oliver Twins, Richard and David Darling, David Braben, Peter M, Jeff Minter, Will Wright and franchises that helped define everything.

Kickstarter is only a problem when companies that already have funding in place abuse it for cheap PR moves such as the new Dizzy Project which although very welcome is laughable in its budget considering every piece of technology needed to make it is already in Blitz Games dev studio and that a similar project from one individual also trying to get started on Kickstarter is asking for a fraction of the price. If you need 350,000 to make a dizzy game you have some really bad financial project managers guys!!!!

Anybody should be allowed the chance to make or help design a game, its the loss of the individual ideas that have brought us to the level of triple A only franchises that exist today, the endless sequels, the tired old genres etc. To combat Tamoors statement that only companies or established developers should make games i simply answer with the following........ X-Men Destiny!!!

When history looks back on this generation im hoping that it remembers games like Journey and Limbo and the countless Indie games you can pick up for pennies instead of just listing all the yearly EA and Activision fodder. Kickstarter is helping keep small devs and individual coders going and for that alone im truly grateful.....Roll on next year and Ouya.

Rob wins this round without even opening his mouth, he could have sat there and licked a wall and won.

I honestly mean no offence, im shell shocked, if nothing else im just extremely concerned about Tamoors mental health, does he hear what he is saying???? Somebody put him up to this didnt they? Tamoor if your being instructed against your will blink 4 times in a row next week and i will call the police.
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby razors edge » 01 Dec 2012, 09:17

Megatrons_Fury wrote:
Upon viewing this weeks debate i got to the point where Tamoor argues that Kickstarter opens the doors to people who shouldnt make games and at this point i couldnt believe my ears, theres no way unless this is a joke that this statement can even be argued, its a completely un-defendable statement to make.

If it wasnt for people making games from places like bedrooms etc this industry would in fact have no industry, the era of BBC Micro's, Spectrum 16/48/128k, Amstrad cpc's Commodore C16/C64 through to Amiga 500/1200/600 and Atari ST/Falcon gave us people like the Oliver Twins, Richard and David Darling, David Braben, Peter M, Jeff Minter, Will Wright and franchises that helped define everything.



Edited for you. Now go look up 'concise' in the dictionary.
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby HelloLadies » 01 Dec 2012, 09:34

Rob hands down. Oculus Rift and Star Citizen are enough reasons for me.
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby KMakawa » 01 Dec 2012, 18:33

Kickstarter wasnt even imagined at the start to be a platform for developers to try and gain funding in order to help development of a game, sure it can cause harm if it is treated in such a way..

But with the projects that we have seen (and projects that I have backed myself) you are pretty much giving a developer that chance, the chance that publishers are not prepared to give as it may seem outdated, different, outlandish, cant sell enough units for them or is simply a "risk" which in todays gaming industry "risk" is a lot of the reasons why most games dont come through, you have stupidly amazing titles that dont make it because there is just a little ounce of risk that it may not be liked.

You are potentially giving a developer the opportunity to create his idea, based on their presentation.. Granted in a lot of my pledges i have pledged based on who they are within the industry and what they have done for this industry. But if we cannot place our trust as people, into a developer - then surely the industry is flawed much more then what had been thought..

If we cant trust a developer, how could a publisher - for example.

Some of the projects that I have backed: Double Fine Adventure, Broken Sword: Serpents Curse, Project GODUS

Can anyone really say that without Kickstarter these projects would not of existed?? Chances are, they wouldnt have. Because they would of clashed with so many things in the industry so far, and simply deemed too risky by publishers. However looking at those kickstarter pages, you would be thankful (or atleast I am thankful) that these guys are given sound and solid opportunities to create these games and bring back some of the much loved gaming that we once had.. Broken Sword, the game that started the entire Point&Click Adventure for some.. Project GODUS from the guy who created the God Genre!

You just dont get that anymore, and that is the reason why Kickstarter does more good then harm, It is giving the choice and power back to the people who play the games, and missing out the publisher part - who seem to decide what games are right for us.

Tamoor raised something along the lines of.. "If the community wanted multiplayer midway, then they'd have to do multiplayer, cause thats what they want." This simply is not the case, if it wasnt in the presentation and it wasnt in a stretch goal or design document, or it wasnt from a direct question from the team - they do not have to bend over for the people asking for such a feature.. They said what they wanted to create, they have pledged based on that, they then create what they have said they would.. Community are here to support, advise on features and all that - but they are not entitled developers.
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby Padua » 01 Dec 2012, 19:42

I'm all for Kickstarter.

I've also backed only two Projects so far - ELITE: Dangerous and Ouya

I don't understand what is "dangerous" about giving crowd-funding to a group of developers who want to short-circuit traditional development and do it themselves OldSkool. It is expensive to create decent games now compared in the 80's when a kid could come out with Elite or Manic Miner or Flying Llamas. Most studios turn their back on risky original ideas in favour of carbon copy guaranteed titles/sequels that are known to sell well.

I see Kickstarter as something similar to XFactor but for a wide variety of people to be given a chance that they might normally have not been given. It was hardly dangerous when Little Mix won XFactor 2011 was it? Didn't stop 1D taking over the world or scare other professional artists :|

I like the altruistic nature of Kickstarter a lot but I would prefer if there was a concept of being a shareholder as a reward, rather than some gimmicky things on offer :lol:

Was surprised to see Braben asking for money for Elite: Dangerous as it is a game many have wanted for a long time.
However I'm cool with whatever it takes to get me back into the cockpit of my own Cobra Mark III :shock:
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby Padua » 01 Dec 2012, 19:54

Megatrons_Fury wrote: Somebody put him up to this didnt they? Tamoor if your being instructed against your will blink 4 times in a row next week and i will call the police.


I reckon they just tossed a coin for whom would play Devil's Advocate and Tamoor lost :D
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby toaplan » 01 Dec 2012, 20:22

Padua wrote:I don't understand what is "dangerous" about giving crowd-funding to a group of developers...


What if the project gets cancelled after you've donated?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20003916
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby Padua » 02 Dec 2012, 20:50

toaplan wrote:
Padua wrote:I don't understand what is "dangerous" about giving crowd-funding to a group of developers...


What if the project gets cancelled after you've donated?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20003916


Well the beauty of crowd-sourcing is the investment is shared out among a lot of people. I've lost a lot more in share dealing than the pitiful small amounts I invest in others on Kickstarter. Yeah it is a risk but what isn't a risk in life? The riskiest bets are often where the greatest success stories are found too.
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Re: Head 2 Head: Does Kickstarter do more harm than good?

Postby CrispyLog » 02 Dec 2012, 21:10

Megatrons_Fury wrote:
Upon viewing this weeks debate i got to the point where Tamoor argues that Kickstarter opens the doors to people who shouldnt make games and at this point i couldnt believe my ears, theres no way unless this is a joke that this statement can even be argued, its a completely un-defendable statement to make.


It is true though. I could start a kickstarter page with a load of nice images and claim I am making a game very similar to some old classic to get some funding, and no way should I make a game as I have no skills. That's an extreme example, but no doubt there are some games up there by people with little experience of making games and are probably pretty rubbish, yet they are asking for money from other people.

I think a big problem which a lot of people haven't noticed, is not that a lot of these games won't be made, but that they'll be a bit s**t when they come out. I mean just look at the games on steam, there is a large amount of s**t on there and I imagine a lot of kickstarter games will end up like that too unfortunately. It is a bit dodgey because of all the advertising spin 'We are using our own, special advanced engine and amazing art to create a unique game harkening back to the god game classics like Dungeon Keeper' people read that and get excited and throw money at them, even if it has no hope of living up to the hype. It reminds me a lot of those JML adverts.

Still though, if even just a few games made from it are classics then it'll be well worth it.
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