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Piracy vs Pre-owned and the Digital Market Place

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Piracy vs Pre-owned and the Digital Market Place

Postby Flamestrike » 18 Oct 2011, 13:32

In your humble opinion, which do you think is more damaging to the sale of new games/industry long term?

The reason I ask is that Publishers seem to have focused their concerns on pre-owned rather than piracy of late.

Bare in mind that piracy doesn't run on a 1.1 ratio and that pre-owned doesn't always guarantee the sell through of new releases.

Thoughts?

*edit*

I've updated the title thread as the debate of Digital Downloads has entered the fray. So as a further question, particularly for those who support pre-owned: How has, if at all, the digital download boom effected your gaming? Do you champion or condemn it?
Last edited by Flamestrike on 18 Oct 2011, 20:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby dwhlufc » 18 Oct 2011, 13:49

Are piracy ratios more down to pc games than consoles,I haven't a clue as I don't know a single person with pirate games on ps3 but a few who have Wii & 360 pirate games,not saying it isn't possible but I just don't know anyone with pirate ps3 games.

Personally I think piracy is worse by a huge margin and publishers/Dev's should focus there attention on that,what they need to remember is if someone does buy there game second hand that there's a possibility that if they enjoyed it they could potentially buy a sequel or dlc for that game.Now I understand that if people don't buy games new it affects sales and the casts doubt over future sequels/dlc or spinoffs and of course studios jobs but nit everyone can afford to buy x amount of new games once a month or even at all when they consider thru can buy 2 or 3 games for the same price second hand.

I think prices need to come down to combat both piracy and second hand sales,if prices were set at £30 I think more people would be willing to buy games new instead of waiting for the usual £10-£15 price a month or 2 later.Games are along and expensive process to develop and I fully understand that but I think price cuts would help initial sales and also people wouldn't mind buying dlc for a game considering the initial puchase price was fair.

Just my thoughts mind and I'm sure others have ideas or more insight into the industry than me. :D
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby theideal » 18 Oct 2011, 16:07

dwhlufc wrote:I think prices need to come down to combat both piracy and second hand sales,if prices were set at £30 I think more people would be willing to buy games new instead of waiting for the usual £10-£15 price a month or 2 later.Games are along and expensive process to develop and I fully understand that but I think price cuts would help initial sales and also people wouldn't mind buying dlc for a game considering the initial puchase price was fair.


I don't think price drops would make the slightest difference personally. Second hand games will still be cheaper and people that still want to save a few bob/don't care or think about the sustainability of the industry will still buy used.
And haven't few of those indie 'pay what you want' charity packs proven that no matter how little you charge for a handful of great games, a lot of the scumbags out there will still go out of their way to nick them?

Piracy and used have a massive impact but at least there's opportunity for devs to claw a little back with used, as the Batman/Gamestop deal has shown.
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby jim2wheels » 18 Oct 2011, 16:34

I don't know a single person who strictly buys used only. But nearly every gamer I know sells/trades games to fund new and used game purchases. This means someone in the industry will see some of that money reinvested.

Piracy offers absolutely nothing, and takes everything. And I know 2 people with hacked ps3's who don't spend a penny

There may be less piracy than used game buyers, but no one can truely calculate the reinvestment of used game sales. But, we can safely assume piracy equals a zero return.
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby ricflair » 18 Oct 2011, 16:40

Well at least in preowned some of the money goes back into gaming, 99% of the time I trade for something else and 99% of the time that title is new. Something that is conveniently never mentioned by publishers.

Years ago I had a copy of HL2 on the PC, but it was glitchy, being a crack and all that. However it made me buy the original as it was very good. That's about the only real plus for the industry I can see and I bet that is a pretty rare thing. How much it costs the industry is up for debate though as people will play stuff for free they wouldn't have bought, but it's safe to say it does much, much more damage than it does good.

I think theideal is right that if the price of new comes down, the price of preowned will come down, although maybe the price difference would be lesser too and that could possibly help things. The thing with preowned is that I think newish preowned games are actually too expensive - £40 for a two/three week old game I can get for close to £30 online?!?

I think the best ways to keep people coming back is to sod off the sequel every year or two and release much higher quality and more substantial DLC.
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby Reegeee » 18 Oct 2011, 16:49

Yeah totally agree, they should make a much bigger deal of bonus content too. I think the Japanese have that kind of thing nailed down. They tend to have a variety of versions of games with free DLC for the 1st year and all that stuff. I think Battlefield BC2 got it right too with the VIP code.

Borderlands is a good example too. That game could easily have had a sequel by now but they made some quality DLC for that game. I bet you buying Borderlands 2 new will give you a code for the first piece of DLC for free or something.
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby Mmmmgrolsch » 18 Oct 2011, 18:50

I don't believe for one minute Pre-owned is damaging the industry in the slightest. No matter what Publishers cry about there is NO FACT whatsoever from anyone in this world that can say yes pre-owned damages industry, its all down to 'beliefs' no one can prove anything because each and every individual is different.

I will say one thing that I fully believe in, without pre-owned = downfall of new ips to a bigger degree than we have now, less innovation and more yearly updates. Without pre-owned there will only be CoD20, DS 10, Assassins Creed 15, FIFA 1,876 etc to be looking forwards to.

Why? Because there will be no fall back for buying a game and realising you just wasted all your money on a new ip you actually don't like, or the game is a broken mess. At the moment we have that comfort knowing if you go out and spend £20, £30, £40 on a new game that you haven't played before and has been hyped about how great it is by lying developers like Sledgehammer for example lying about how much MW3 is different when it isn't. When it turns out wtf I hate this game or too many bugs whatever! You can resell it on and use that money to get a different game.

What happens there is even though that 'used' sale lost 1 for the devs it actually gains one again because that initial buying with that crap product he doesn't like has now used the money plus more because he lost £5-£10 and put it back into the industry again to buy another product.

This of course is one of many examples. Some people, no wait, most people simply can't afford to buy all games without making some money back on them to reinvest in the next title. And therefore = alot less sales.

For example if I spent £1000 on gaming this year and made £500 back I can use that £500 to buy another load of games -putting that money from the 2nd hand sales right back into the system + extra.

So my theory is that no one is losing money at all. They are in fact benefiting from pre-owned sales. We need people to be there to buy our old games to fund future games simple as that.

And before anyone says anything. I have not sold 1 games this gen to anyone from my PS3 and have only purchased 3 pre-owned games which lead me to buy the sequels day 1! Dead Space 1, Uncharted 1, Batman. But as you all know Batman has now lost a sale from me ironically :lol: I will be buying that game pre-owned.
And I tell you now the devs from them 3 games didn't lose a penny at all, because I hated the demos from all 3 and had no intention whatsoever of buying any of them. Dead Space and UC1 was 2 for £20 or buy them new for £35 in total. For a tenner a piece I took a chance, I was never going to buy them if the only choice was to buy them for £35 new and had no interest in either games. Only reason's I bought them was because everyone wouldn't shut up about how amazing they were so I thought the demos must have been s**t.
As for Batman? Well the Publishers got on their high horse and decided to punish anyone buying their game new and not having the internet. Well f**k them. I don;t owe them anything. They just lost £40 notes from me to now actually getting a grand total of £0 :roll: slow clap.....
Dave talked me into buying Batman and he is the only reason I bought it. He actually would have been the reason Batman would have sold an extra copy this year.

And what happened? They were both awesome and I bought their sequels Day 1!!!!! Not only that I lent them both to my house mate that also had no desire to play them but I blagged his head to play them and he went and bought both the sequels even though he could have borrowed them off me. And we also both have Uncharted 3 on pre-order.

So that's a total of 6 brand new day one game sales all thanks to 2nd hand market. So people who say blah blah blah 2nd hand market this blah blah, well I wouldn't have bought them games would I????????
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby Mmmmgrolsch » 18 Oct 2011, 19:06

Just to make it clear to people that can't actually read or has some difficulty understanding things .... hi gippo :wink: pre-owned has nothing to do with my stance on Batman, that is them locking out single player content.
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby flash501 » 18 Oct 2011, 19:12

At the end of the day, the second hand market exists in all walks of life. I don't understand why games publishers feel like they're being so hard done by from it.
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby Reegeee » 18 Oct 2011, 19:30

You know, I never thought of it that way but you are absolutely spot on there Grolsch. I agree, most people on here would hardly buy any games without being able to trade in and so to that end the industry would suffer massively and make a fraction of the sales they would do without the pre owned market.
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby Flamestrike » 18 Oct 2011, 19:42

flash501 wrote:At the end of the day, the second hand market exists in all walks of life. I don't understand why games publishers feel like they're being so hard done by from it.


Believe it or not, the book, film and music industries aren't overly keen about the pre-owned market for their respective products either.

The games industry just seem to be a little more vocal about it.
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby dwhlufc » 18 Oct 2011, 19:54

Well if they all get there own way and get rid of the second hand market,i bet the majority of them would go under within a few years.

I'm adamant when videogames go download only i'm done with it,we see games being released on PSN now and there £10-£15 more expensive than in the shops!How does that work?

no printing manuals covers
no cases
no discs
no shipping costs

surely they should be cheaper as download titles,i know those examples are probably a pound or two but there know way i'd be willing to pay todays priuces without a physical product.
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby Mmmmgrolsch » 18 Oct 2011, 19:58

You know where the only place pre-owned effects the industry imo? Game and other shops like them. Go in there and buy a brand new game and you get looked at like dirt :? and then they try and make you buy a pre-owned game for a few quid less. They take up all the shelf space with 2nd hand games with a little section to new games.

It is these that should be forced to suffer if anyone is to not gamers. When they make their profits the money goes into the suits pockets at the top. Where as when gamers trade between ourselves we are constantly reinvesting.

There simply has to be a way that doesn't punish the consumers. We should have to unlock online passes for online gameplay or passes of any kind. We are the most important part of the industry. Even if its not the right answer Game should pay a small fee for pre-owned games for their aggressiveness towards pushing 2nd hand sales. That way we get all our content on a disc retaining maximum value for extra money to spend on games, devs don't suffer from us so that that out the way. Then they make a small fortune off game.

It simply shouldn't be gamers problem to deal with. Simple as that.
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby Mmmmgrolsch » 18 Oct 2011, 20:01

dwhlufc wrote:Well if they all get there own way and get rid of the second hand market,i bet the majority of them would go under within a few years.

I'm adamant when videogames go download only i'm done with it,we see games being released on PSN now and there £10-£15 more expensive than in the shops!How does that work?

no printing manuals covers
no cases
no discs
no shipping costs

surely they should be cheaper as download titles,i know those examples are probably a pound or two but there know way i'd be willing to pay todays priuces without a physical product.


If games went download only mate I think consoles will die simple as that. Too many gamers want a physical product for money and what a freedom of choice where to buy games from myself included.

In all honesty if it were Sony and MS dictating game prices I will become a PC gamer. Have a look at PC game prices, they are s**t loads cheaper. Steam actually is a cheap service for games even cheaper than you can ever buy a physical game in some cases.
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Re: Piracy vs Pre-owned

Postby ricflair » 18 Oct 2011, 20:04

They should cut the s**t out. The industry releases loads of games that are obviously s**t, yet people (aka reegeee) still buy them.

You look at some of the games and think "at what point did you not realise you were making a pile of s**t?". Cut out the crap, concentrate on the good stuff and reap the rewards. There are so many games released nowadays, across so many formats, all vying for attention/shelf space and people have a finite amount of money, and I'm sure a fair whack of it goes on god awful games.

Also when marketing budgets are higher than the development budgets, you know something is wrong.

The thing is, it's only going to get worse. Budgets will go up next gen, and I'm sure we'll see more digital content. And all companies find it impossible to not fist our wallets when it comes to digital. HD rentals on Virgin, XBL and PSN cost half the price of a f**king blu ray purchase - they really need to meet the consumer in the middle here.
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