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Modern Warfare2....No Dedicated servers

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Postby Red_Avatar » 13 Nov 2009, 22:53

Yeah it's quite staggering how utterly out of touch they are with reality. They charge £10 more for a game with a 5 hour single player part, a crippled MP mode and then expect people to pay even more for whatever crappy services they have in mind. I don't play ANY online games that involve paying for better gear and if they're going that way, I won't even consider getting MW2 for less than £15.
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Postby Gorgeras » 14 Nov 2009, 01:02

tim_ward wrote:
This sample has also been taken on the day Modern Warfare 2 became available on Steam: meaning of course anyone that bought it is going to be online playing it.


ITT we do not know what a 'time zone' is.


Since when did 'time' or it's relative 'zones' become an issue on any release day for an AAA game?
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Postby Gorgeras » 14 Nov 2009, 01:04

Poptart Fairy wrote:
Gorgeras wrote:Wall of poorly written asperger text.


Hey, numpty: the point wasn't that Steam is exploding under the weight of MW2's multiplayer numbers, it's that those who have been screaming and wetting themselves over the lack of dedicated servers are the ones who are now playing the damn thing.

If you're going to burn flags over this, the least you can do is avoid buying the product. Undermines your cause somewhat.


You either didn't read that 'wall of asperger text' or you're still lying.
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Postby tim_ward » 14 Nov 2009, 03:42

Gorgeras wrote:Since when did 'time' or it's relative 'zones' become an issue on any release day for an AAA game?


Since you started assuming that the total number of people online playing that "AAA" game at any given time on launch day also represents the total number of people who purchased the game that day.
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Postby Poptart Fairy » 14 Nov 2009, 08:06

Gorgeras wrote:You either didn't read that 'wall of asperger text' or you're still lying.


I did read it. Unfortunately your insane ability to type massive amounts without actually saying anything results in a very painful, nonsenical mumble better suited to that 'tard in the corner who's upset about his missing pudding.

I'm also curious how IW 'crippled' the multiplayer. Oh no, we can no longer have 64 players in a map designed for 18! Alert the presses! SKREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

Also, I find it absolutely sickening how gamers are screaming their heads off over IW starting a charity. Shut the f**k up and stop seeing conspiracies in everything; you wouldn't be bothered by this if you'd gotten to play with your precious 'HEADSHOT' custom noises.
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Postby lizard » 14 Nov 2009, 08:52

Poptart Fairy wrote:
Gorgeras wrote:Wall of poorly written asperger text.






how about you take your prejudiced comments and stuff them up your arse, c**t.
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Postby Xercies » 14 Nov 2009, 11:15

The_Terminator wrote:Well, now we know why they didn't want player-run servers: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/ar ... ?id=227204 :P


Knew it Just knew it, I bet you have to pay like £5 a month so you can have dedicated servers. f**k That.

Activision was on my blacklist before but now they are actually one of the worst companies I know. f**k them and you should to.
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Postby Poptart Fairy » 14 Nov 2009, 14:29

lizard wrote:how about you take your prejudiced comments and stuff them up your arse, c**t.


I'd rather not, ta.

Gorgeras has a history of posting like that, both here and over on the warcraft forums. He rambles, moans and posts about seven billion paragraphs without ever bothering to make a point. I think my personal favourite was the massive thread he posted to congratulate himself on disagreeing with a Devil's Advocate article. Heh.

If you get that uptight about the use of the word asperger's, then get off the internet dear because god help you outside my posting.
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Postby Wednesday » 14 Nov 2009, 17:22

I like the wording of that Activision post.

"We've talked to gamers, and they really want to spend more money on what they should be getting anyway"
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Postby lizard » 14 Nov 2009, 17:26

Poptart Fairy wrote:
If you get that uptight about the use of the word asperger's, then get off the internet dear because god help you outside my posting.



so you're patronising aswell as being a bigot, what a charmer.
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Postby barmyllama » 14 Nov 2009, 18:58

All I can say is;

You can't tell the MP is not being hosted on a dedicated server.

After 7 hours of MP I have experienced lag once and only for a few seconds, fortunately I didn't die either.

The game doesn't feel any different online than MW1

IWNET just works and 99% of the time it works well.

I for one have no desire to play 64 players on maps designed for 20 or less, 24-64 players is just a spawn killing camper's wet dream and no fun at all.
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Postby Macdory » 14 Nov 2009, 19:16

barmyllama wrote:All I can say is;

You can't tell the MP is not being hosted on a dedicated server.

After 7 hours of MP I have experienced lag once and only for a few seconds, fortunately I didn't die either.


Hehe - when you don't understand something it's generally better not to say anything.

The argument for dedicated servers isn't just about reliable connections, etc - it's about community!!! Going back to the same servers and trying to beat people who you play regularly with, who you converse with outside of the game, and who you trust not to be screaming obscenities down the mic all the time !!!

The problem with random drop in is that you can't avoid little Johnny, who's mum is so inbread that she can't even understand that her 12 year old shouldn't be playing a game with a big 18 cert on the front of it - but given that she was pregnant before she made it to high school, and she can only count to 10 tops, then little Johnny is free to screech throughout the game, and given that there are no mods on random servers (unlike dedicated ones) you can't kick his ass out of the game.

Between this and L4D2 I am quite happy to have saved ~£50, which I would have normally spent.
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Postby The K-Hole » 14 Nov 2009, 20:24

Extracts from an email I wrote to someone who writes a popular gaming blog and yet has stayed quiet over this shitstorm. I've skipped the intro

Whilst you've probably already guessed I am primarily a PC gamer (though I do own a 360) please don't dissmiss me as a raging PC eliteist. Although certain memers of the community cannot compose an argument that goes beyond "IW SUX", this is a serious issue with far reaching implications for the whole gaming community, I understand the soapbox is primarily geared towards a console audiance but this affects everyone.

So where to start? Firstly I'd like to show how this is a change for the worst. Firstly in terms of ping (connection) times this is clearly a worse setup. With my fairly slow internet connection I generally ping under 40m/s to servers in Western Europe (Scandinavia, UK, France, Germany etc) (I'm from the UK). In an interview here

http://www.tek-9.org/news/mw2_developer ... -2115.html

The developer himself suggests we will be achiving ping times of around 100 m/s which any serious online player in the PC community will tell you is a serious step down. Remember, this is not an independant body saying we will be achiving these times, this is one of the devs, who will surely be presenting a "best possible" scenario.

In the same article we also have

Is there a console in the PC version of the game, so we can change our field of view from the xbox's default 65 FOV to 80 also can we tweaks the weapon damage for each gun, removes perks, graphical debris, breathing sway, also thru console like we where able to before or is this all gone?
Vince-IW: We would like you to play the game the way we designed and balanced it.

The problem with this statement (besides the obvious one that taking peoples ability to play how THEY like is an obvious step back) is that balance is not done in a vacuum. Weapons that are perfectly appropriate for casual public play are thorougly inappropriate in a serious clan match set up. The big example of this in CoD4:MW was the underbarrel grenade launcher. With enough practice skilled players could fire shots to hit the enemy spawn right from the off. I could go into a long talk about why certain weapons were impractical for serious matches, but to do so would be boring and take up a lot of your valuable time so I'll move on.

Since we can not kick people in ranked matches, how will we stop hackers who get past VAC?
Mackey-IW: Our goal is to ban hackers from the game.

Which is pretty much like someone asking a politician. "With your regressive tax cuts and abolishment of social welfare programmes that many of the most socially disadvantaged in our country rely on, what do you plan to do about the issue of poverty.
Politician: Our goal is to eliminate poverty.

Well thats all very well and good but you haven't really said how making the problem worse helps that goal.

Also, going back to clans...Is there a way to have more than 18 people in a server, because my clan has at least 100 members and we like to get 20-30 on our servers at the same time.
Mackey-IW: Games cap out at 9v9. The software has great latency tolerance. See above!

Again, a pretty obvious step back here. Personally I never liked playing more "tactical" FPS (I.e not ones in the Quake/UT fast paced mould) more than about 9v9 precisely because after that number they started to turn into fast paced Quake/UT style games, but thats not the point. Many many people, probably the majority of "casual" players (they very playerbase they pretend to be serving with this change) enjoy these more chaotic instant respawn gametype. Much like the above, this again is reducing the quality and breadth of the experience to improve their control over it.

And lets not forget the lack of mod support, clan support such a change could bring. Despite the image being somewhat crude and open to interpretation this image essentially sums up what I am trying to say

http://www.destructoid.com/elephant/pho ... 3#prevnext



So lets look at their supposed reasoning for the change.

You said IWnet was created to help stop piracy, what do you say about the Xbox 360 version leaked and shared on torrent sites?
Vince-IW: IWnet was designed to make the MP experience on PC easier and more balanced.

Well its good they said it wasen't to stop piracy. Stopping people pirating the single player version of the game is sadly, nearly impossible. However MW2 requires steam which nearly eliminates people playing pirated copies online, seeing as this is so IWnet has nothing to do with piracy.

Lets deal with the first point first, making the experience easier. Personally I have been playing PC games online since the time of Quake and I have NEVER heard anyone ask for a matchmaking system instead of the dedicated servers system. I have many friends who I'd probably define as more "casual" games who only very occasionally play a game like CS and I've never once heard from one that a server browser was too complicated.

However, I can accept that there might be a tiny minority of PC gamers who do not understand how server browsers work and might prefer an option that just says "Play Online Now!". Thats fine, if you implemented that it would be a bonus not a flaw, but not INSTEAD of dedicated servers. Its perfectly possible to have both, for just one example, L4D had just such a system.

The second point is also ridiculous. Firstly, as I said balance will be different depending on the gamemode played, and more importantly how serious the players are. Secondly, I'm sure they'd admit (and if they didn't they would be either fools or liars) that no game is ever perfectly balanced on its first release. The PC community generally reacts much faster and better to these imbalances than developers ever do due to free market principles. The community very quickly comes out with a variety of mods and those that do not fit the needs of the playerbase die and those that do survive. In opposition to that we have a centralised patching scheme by the developers whose knowledge of the dynamics of the game will generally be far inferior to that of the hardcore community that make these mods.

So why is this so important?

Because its all about taking control away from gamers and placing it in the hands of large companies. If they are allowed total control over their product they can and will exploit it for all its worth. Just to give one hypothetical example most PC gaming clans in CoD4 use a server config called "Pro-mod". With the ability to implement these changes into the game taken away how long will it be before companies start coming to us with their own "Pro-mods" for this demographic. $5 For a few changes to some .CFG files that any competant modder could do in 5 minutes.

The PC is vital to gaming as a whole because it provides a counterweight and a different slant on gaming culture. It has shown for years the positive impact that an active community and modding can have on games. Lets not forget that L4D was born from an idea that came from playing a CS Mod, which itself is a mod. This I must stress is not trying to say that PC gaming is "Better" than console gaming, just different, and diversity in any community is a good thing, it encourages open debate and creativity. I've never heard the moddability and versatility of PC games being brought up as a negative, rather than staying silent in IWs attempt to stifle this, the 360 and PS3 community should be demanding that some of the benefits of the PC system such as dedicated servers and mod support are technically possible on their system and long overdue.

I have shown how this is not about piracy, hacking, improving the experience or any other supposed "benefit" banded around by IWs PR department, this is about control. Some would say that IW have a right to do this, it's their product, thats true but in the same way one has a right to charge extortionate prices for food you own to a starving man. Because you have the right to do something does not make it ethical. To end with a point you to this

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/ar ... 4&site=cvg

WoW subscription for playing a FPS online? There is simply no justification for that. Its not a gaming world I want to live in and although many havn't seen what the big deal is yet, they wouldn't either.

(I've now done more work on this Email than on my History essay so I hope you read it :P)

Love to hear your thoughts on this issue.

Yours, Rich. (E-Bass)
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Postby barmyllama » 15 Nov 2009, 02:02

Macdory wrote:
barmyllama wrote:All I can say is;

You can't tell the MP is not being hosted on a dedicated server.

After 7 hours of MP I have experienced lag once and only for a few seconds, fortunately I didn't die either.


Hehe - when you don't understand something it's generally better not to say anything.

The argument for dedicated servers isn't just about reliable connections, etc - it's about community!!! Going back to the same servers and trying to beat people who you play regularly with, who you converse with outside of the game, and who you trust not to be screaming obscenities down the mic all the time !!!

The problem with random drop in is that you can't avoid little Johnny, who's mum is so inbread that she can't even understand that her 12 year old shouldn't be playing a game with a big 18 cert on the front of it - but given that she was pregnant before she made it to high school, and she can only count to 10 tops, then little Johnny is free to screech throughout the game, and given that there are no mods on random servers (unlike dedicated ones) you can't kick his ass out of the game.

Between this and L4D2 I am quite happy to have saved ~£50, which I would have normally spent.


Thanks for that you patronising t**t.

For your information I have been in several gaming clans and although you may meet some of them on the same server or playing the same game, it's not really the game that makes a clan it's the people.

And since MW2 is a new game, without dedicated servers, then it's not likely to be adoped by existing clans or any new one started around it. So your community argument sort of falls down a bit.

Add that to the fact that MW2 really is pretty much MW1 with different maps, then existing clans can carry on playing MW1 and casual gamers can play this or any other game they choose.

I've paid £30 for a game that will easily give me over 100 hours of play.

I don't really give a s**t whether or not anally retentive dick heads can customise the game into something that it was never meant to be.

Don't like the map? Join another lobby.

Don't like the game type? Join another lobby

Want to play with your mates? Create a party.

Get killed my Martyrdom? You're not really dead, it's a f**king game, respawn and have another go.

If all else fails........

CARRY ON PLAYING CAll OF DUTY: MODERN WARFARE!!!!!
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Postby White Thrall » 15 Nov 2009, 03:43

barmyllama wrote:And since MW2 is a new game, without dedicated servers, then it's not likely to be adoped by existing clans or any new one started around it. So your community argument sort of falls down a bit.


I thought the community argument was exactly what you just said. Communities aren't going to form around the game.
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