Top 5 favourite films

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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby Gaseous Snake » 14 Jun 2011, 15:24

spaceman_DOUG wrote:They are in philosophy. They're all logical ways to determine what is fundamentally right, or true.

Also, my name does start with a capital letter, it is a proper noun.


I was trying to quote what the previous poster had written. Don't get petty.

And dress it how you want; thinking and proving are different, even if they are being done for the same purpose. Proving is what science does, thinking is what philosophy does.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby ricflair » 14 Jun 2011, 15:28

You wanna get sucked in? dOUG will suck you in so far you'll get sucked out the other side.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby Gaseous Snake » 14 Jun 2011, 15:33

ricflair wrote:You wanna get sucked in? dOUG will suck you in so far you'll get sucked out the other side.


He'll suck, I'll blow; best grab 'yer sleeping bags, folks.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby spaceman_DOUG » 14 Jun 2011, 15:47

Gaseous Snake wrote:
spaceman_DOUG wrote:They are in philosophy. They're all logical ways to determine what is fundamentally right, or true.

Also, my name does start with a capital letter, it is a proper noun.


I was trying to quote what the previous poster had written. Don't get petty.

And dress it how you want; thinking and proving are different, even if they are being done for the same purpose. Proving is what science does, thinking is what philosophy does.


Philosophy deals with absolute proof, no assumptions, reality stripped down to nothing then built up from scratch using only logic and no assumptions.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby Gaseous Snake » 14 Jun 2011, 16:00

Yes; logic. Not evidence. Applied philosophy may, but plain ol' philosophy doesn't.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby spaceman_DOUG » 14 Jun 2011, 16:03

Logic is proof is evidence.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby Gaseous Snake » 14 Jun 2011, 16:12

spaceman_DOUG wrote:Logic is proof is evidence.


Not so; logic is observation is opinion. Philosophy is sort of a way to find the best viewpoint on the issues it deals with.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby spaceman_DOUG » 14 Jun 2011, 16:17

Logic isn't observation or opinion, logic is, as Wikipedia puts it, the formal systematic study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning.
It's fact.
Philosophy doesn't deal with viewpoints, it deals with fundamental proofs. Philosophy is as pure as mathematics.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby Gaseous Snake » 14 Jun 2011, 16:35

spaceman_DOUG wrote:Logic isn't observation or opinion, logic is, as Wikipedia puts it, the formal systematic study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning.
It's fact.
Philosophy doesn't deal with viewpoints, it deals with fundamental proofs. Philosophy is as pure as mathematics.


And if you search the very same Wikipedia article that I suspect you quoted that from, the only time the word proof appears is when it is related to math; in fact, logic is math. Maybe I was a bit off with the opinion part, but the observation part is absolutely spot on. Logic is the generalization of observations; here, I'll give you Wikipedia's example of the logical (argument) form;

Original argument:
All humans are mortal.
Socrates is human.
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.


Argument Form:
All H are M.
S is H.
Therefore, S is M.


I've put the observations in bold for you, in case there was any confusion.

And this brings me back to the original point; critical, systematic and rational are the ways in which the observations are made, observations which are then generalized to an appropriate extent and put into a logical form.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby spaceman_DOUG » 14 Jun 2011, 16:42

They aren't just observations! They have to be facts to to do all the A is to B what B is to C s**t!

Fact:
All humans are mortal.

Fact:
Socrates is human.

Logical determination, and therefore fact:
Socrates is mortal.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby Gaseous Snake » 14 Jun 2011, 17:12

spaceman_DOUG wrote:They aren't just observations! They have to be facts to to do all the A is to B what B is to C s**t!

Fact:
All humans are mortal.

Fact:
Socrates is human.

Logical determination, and therefore fact:
Socrates is mortal.


You observe the facts; whether they are facts or not is irrelevant. Don't forget; it's a fact that gravity has existed for billions of years. It is an observation which lead to the fact being uncovered. Of course, then you could quite easily argue that observations and facts are the same thing. But then, all rules have exceptions. So logic cannot exist since what it states is not true. Which means that the universe is illogical. And since facts are based on logic, and logic doesn't exist, facts don't exist. And that's philosophy for you.

Now that I've gone through with that; remember back to when I said we had our definitions of philosophy mixed up? We had. The four definitions of philosophy, according to Google, are:

phi·los·o·phy
noun /fəˈläsəfē/ 
philosophies, plural

1. The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, esp. when considered as an academic discipline

2. A set of views and theories of a particular philosopher concerning such study or an aspect of it
- Schopenhauer’s philosophy

3. The study of the theoretical basis of a particular branch of knowledge or experience
- the philosophy of science

4. A theory or attitude held by a person or organization that acts as a guiding principle for behavior


Now then, I'm not sure which definition you are using, but I'm using number 3 (I believe). For example; cause and effect.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby spaceman_DOUG » 14 Jun 2011, 17:26

Gaseous Snake wrote:You observe the facts; whether they are facts or not is irrelevant. Don't forget; it's a fact that gravity has existed for billions of years. It is an observation which lead to the fact being uncovered. Of course, then you could quite easily argue that observations and facts are the same thing. But then, all rules have exceptions. So logic cannot exist since what it states is not true. Which means that the universe is illogical. And since facts are based on logic, and logic doesn't exist, facts don't exist. And that's philosophy for you.


Observation's got nought to do with it! If All H are M, S is H, then it means S is M. You don't need to observe anything, you just need to use logic and reasoning. An observation can be wrong, facts can't, not can logical deductions, by definition.
Also, not all rules have exceptions and logic and facts do exist. When has logic ever stated something that isn't true?

Gaseous Snake wrote:Now that I've gone through with that; remember back to when I said we had our definitions of philosophy mixed up? We had. The four definitions of philosophy, according to Google, are:

phi·los·o·phy
noun /fəˈläsəfē/ 
philosophies, plural

1. The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, esp. when considered as an academic discipline

2. A set of views and theories of a particular philosopher concerning such study or an aspect of it
- Schopenhauer’s philosophy

3. The study of the theoretical basis of a particular branch of knowledge or experience
- the philosophy of science

4. A theory or attitude held by a person or organization that acts as a guiding principle for behavior


Now then, I'm not sure which definition you are using, but I'm using number 3 (I believe). For example; cause and effect.



You can't pick and chose, they're all right.

The first definition means the study of things that are real because they are proved to be real with no assumptions made.
The second means if you refer to a theory or aspect of philosophy as philosophy.
The third definition is so vague it just says to study theories.
The fourth is just using it to mean a code to live by.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby ginsin » 14 Jun 2011, 17:33

I love the original Matrix film, but I also rather enjoyed the sequels. They're quite different to the first film obviously, and I like them for the sci-fi action, technology and expanding the story a bit more in terms of what has happened to the Earth and its human population.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby Gaseous Snake » 14 Jun 2011, 17:50

I know they're all right, but you can't use a word with multiple definitions, can you? It'd be bloody impossible. It matters which tense you say them in; with philosophy it appears that multiple definitions of philosophy fit a similar tense.

spaceman_DOUG wrote:1. Observation's got nought to do with it!
2. If All H are M, S is H, then it means S is M.
3. You don't need to observe anything, you just need to use logic and reasoning.
4. An observation can be wrong, facts can't, not can logical deductions, by definition.
5. Also, not all rules have exceptions and logic and facts do exist.
6. When has logic ever stated something that isn't true?


I've numbered them so I can make my answers clearer.

1: But how do you find the facts?
2: Yes, A=B=C=D. Stop repeating it.
3: Logic is the "study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning". Of course, to apply this, you need to replace A, B, C and D with ideas, theories, call them whatever you like; they are collected from observations.
4: Facts can't be wrong, you're right; but what we believe to be facts can. Logic can be wrong; hence the existence of paradoxes.
5: Name one rule which absolutely cannot conceivably have an exception.
6: Read the unexpected hanging paradox.
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Re: Top 5 favourite films

Postby spaceman_DOUG » 14 Jun 2011, 18:32

Gaseous Snake wrote:I know they're all right, but you can't use a word with multiple definitions, can you? It'd be bloody impossible. It matters which tense you say them in; with philosophy it appears that multiple definitions of philosophy fit a similar tense.

spaceman_DOUG wrote:1. Observation's got nought to do with it!
2. If All H are M, S is H, then it means S is M.
3. You don't need to observe anything, you just need to use logic and reasoning.
4. An observation can be wrong, facts can't, not can logical deductions, by definition.
5. Also, not all rules have exceptions and logic and facts do exist.
6. When has logic ever stated something that isn't true?


I've numbered them so I can make my answers clearer.

1: But how do you find the facts?
2: Yes, A=B=C=D. Stop repeating it.
3: Logic is the "study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning". Of course, to apply this, you need to replace A, B, C and D with ideas, theories, call them whatever you like; they are collected from observations.
4: Facts can't be wrong, you're right; but what we believe to be facts can. Logic can be wrong; hence the existence of paradoxes.
5: Name one rule which absolutely cannot conceivably have an exception.
6: Read the unexpected hanging paradox.


1. Logical deduction.
2. Oh I am so terribly sorry milady.
3. What are you trying to argue? That to know something is a fact you have to observe it? What about tautologies?
4. Logic can't be wrong, if you follow logic and you get a paradox the logic isn't wrong,
5. Rule 34. Joking aside, I could make up a rule right now that says A is B when A = 5 and B = 5. Another one would be 'all rules other than this have exceptions', if it's true then that rule has no exceptions, if it's false then there are other rules without exceptions.
6. The prisoner's logic is flawed, it would be a surprise on any day because he wasn't expecting it. You can't expect it to happen on multiple days. If you expect it then it wont happen, but as soon as you then expect it not to happen you can expect it to happen. The paradox shows that you can't get out of an inevitable event, which is logical.
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